A Trauma-Informed Court Starts with Procedural Fairness   Leave a comment

Content was originally published by The Justice Speakers Institute, with excerpts included here.

Nelson Mandela once said, “Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.” Few if any judges have the capacity to change the world but all judges have the capacity to make a difference in the lives of those who appear before them. Making a difference for all of those who appear in a courtroom suffering from long-term trauma is within the reach of all judges.  If you preside in a therapeutic court, there are lots of opportunities to ameliorate the trauma that so many of those in therapeutic courts have suffered. But even if you are a part-time limited jurisdiction judge, you have the opportunity to display what a good and decent trauma-informed justice system looks like. And collectively those positive courtroom experiences may well change the world.

The core of being an effective trial court judge is to be a judge who has insight and can effectively manage her or his own emotions as well as the emotions of the others in the courtroom. [1] If the judge presides in a family court or treatment court, there are skills you can learn that can enhance your effectiveness but even if you are a part-time limited jurisdiction court judge there are similar skills that are essential. Beyond insight into emotions in a courtroom a judge needs to be an effective communicator and an even better listener, and a judge needs to be a trauma-informed jurist.

Past Trauma in the Courts

To achieve procedural fairness the effect of past trauma cannot be ignored by judges. Research shows up to 90% of adolescents and 75% of adults involved in the criminal justice system report at least one traumatic event during childhood.[2]  Multiple exposure to community violence, family or domestic violence, or sexual assault creates a higher risk for childhood trauma, resulting in mental health issues, behavioral problems, or substance abuse.[2]  Judges who are trauma-informed know that a significant number of the people who appear before them are suffering from some form of trauma due to Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs).[3] At the same time many of these same jurists, are uncertain about how to develop a constant trauma-informed response.  

For those struggling with this uncertainty, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Administration (SAMHSA) provides important guidance with the publication of the six foundational principles that should guide a trauma-informed approach:[4]

  1. Safety: Everyone in the courthouse should feel physically and psychologically safe. 
  2. Trustworthiness and Transparency: Decisions should be transparent with the goal of building trust between participants and the judge and court personal. 
  3. Peer Support: The court encourages peer support. 
  4. Collaboration and Mutuality: There is a culture of building relationships and problem- solving both among judges, and court professionals in their interactions with participants. 
  5. Empowerment, Voice, and Choice: The court provides opportunities for participants to advocate for themselves and ensures that they have an opportunity to provide input into decision making.
  6. Cultural, Historical, and Gender Issues: The court recognizes and addresses historical trauma and provides access to culturally responsive services. 

These principles when applied to a judge and staff in a courtroom share a remarkable degree of overlap with the four principles of procedural fairness.  They incorporate the same core principles: voice, respectful treatment, transparency and trustworthy authorities. 

Trauma-Informed and Procedural Fairness together

Trauma awareness coupled with adherence to procedural fairness principles is an opportunity to make what even may be small adjustments that will improve judicial outcomes. Years ago, the National Center for State Courts did a survey asking people to describe courtrooms. 39% described them as intimidating.[5] For individuals suffering from deep seated ACEs this intimidation will be far greater.

Formality and a dignified setting surely are important to courts, but intimidation can be counterproductive. People who feel intimidated are less likely to speak (to give voice, which is the most important of the four procedural fairness principles). People who have in the past suffered trauma are highly susceptible to being intimidated. And people who are intimidated are more likely to give the judge false positives. “Sir, do you understand my order?” to which intimidated litigants reply ‘Yes, your Honor’ even though they have no clue what went on, but they do know if they say yes, they are likely to get out of the courtroom faster. Reducing intimidation and helping the speaker begins with “the simple act of giving…court participants a clear explanation of what is going to happen.”[13]

For a judge to be an effective listener, the judge needs of course to have an open mind and guard against creating the impression that the matter has already been decided before the matter has been argued. But beyond that, good listeners have the skill to help a speaker without creating the impression that the judge favors one side or the other. Giving positive feedback to the speaker or saying: “As I understand what you are saying….” helps give voice, confirms the accuracy of the judges understanding of what she or he heard but does not diminish the judge’s neutrality.  This combined with good listening skills builds trust. 

[1] “Emotional Regulation and Judicial Behavior,” 99 California Law Review 1485 (2011)

[2] Trauma Among Youth in the Juvenile Justice System

[3] Brief Adverse Childhood Experiences

[4] Trauma Specific Interventions for Justice Involved Individuals SAMHSA[5] Burke, Kevin and Steve Leban, “Procedural Fairness: A Key Ingredient in Public Satisfaction,” Court Review, American Judges Association (2007)

Posted June 9, 2023 by judgepbergeron in Uncategorized

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The Jury as Part of Procedural Fairness   Leave a comment

We all know that very few cases go to trial – nationally, the percentage of trials is about 1% across civil and criminal cases. But most lawyers and judges simply accept that as a given nowadays because that is the norm in the profession in which they grew up.

            I want to challenge readers to think about working to restore the jury trial as an integral part of advancing procedural fairness (there are many other reasons to promote jury trials, but they are beyond the scope of this post).  Alexis de Tocqueville described the jury as “free school” two centuries ago. When everyday citizens, and their friends and neighbors, serve on juries, they generally walk away from the experience with renewed civic engagement and a better understanding of the court system. Isn’t that something we should encourage? The experiences of jurors can reflect well on the judiciary and help promote confidence in the institution.

            And think about how many participants in our modern litigation system (civil parties, criminal defendants, and even victims) desperately want their “day in court.” They want to see how a jury of their peers will evaluate their claims. Unfortunately, most of them will never get that chance.

            Our contemporary litigation system has evolved to promote settlements or pleas and steer cases away from jury trials. And the system generally works well from a case-processing vantage point. But when much of the work is done in the shadows and away from public eye, how does this reflect on the judiciary?

            The jury exists to provide a check on other institutions (including judges!) and to inject a dose of lay wisdom into the dispute resolution process. We lose both of those critical benefits when juries are sidelined and marginalized.

            Think about even modest steps that you can take—as a judge—to help bring the jury back into the picture. Empirical data suggests that there is a gap between judicial perception (that all parties want to settle or plea) and what lawyers actually believe. What can you do to facilitate trials in cases where parties appear to want or need the jury trial? Even small steps like conveying that you’ll make it work for your schedule can send the message that jury trials are actually welcome and valued.

–Pierre Bergeron, Ohio First District Court of Appeals

Posted April 26, 2023 by judgepbergeron in Uncategorized

Procedural Fairness Resources for the New (or Experienced) Judge   Leave a comment

New judges are appointed or elected regularly, and we’d like to give you a jump start in finding resources on how to make sure that the people who come through your court feel fairly treated. Several decades of social-science research have been dedicated to this topic—under the heading either of procedural justice or procedural fairness. More experienced judges should also find plenty of interest in these resources.

Social scientists (mostly social psychologists) tend to call it procedural justice; judges tend to call it procedural fairness. By either name, it’s the study of the connection between how judges handle their courts and what makes court participants feel fairly treated.

A good starting point is the Bench Card on Procedural Fairness, which we put out in 2018. Cosponsored by the American Judges Association, National Center for State Courts, Center for Court Innovation, and National Judicial College, the bench card puts on two pages the key principles of procedural fairness, tips for trial judges, and links to the leading articles explaining these concepts for a judicial audience.

There’s also a website, ProceduralFairness.org, that has links to research papers in both the court and law-enforcement contexts, information about how procedural-fairness concepts have been implemented in courts throughout the United States, and links to other websites in the area.

We also have a set of audio and video resources at ProceduralFairness.org:

  • We have four video scenarios—all based on real situations—that could come up in court or in the courthouse. Watch the video and reflect on what you or other court actors should do in that situation. Each scenario includes a list of discussion questions and links for more information related to that scenario.
  • We have 11 video interviews with national leaders in procedural fairness. These interviews were done on behalf of the American Judges Association under a State Justice Institute grant. As a starting point, go to the interviews with Tom Tyler and Emily Gold LaGratta. Prof. Tyler has been the academic leader in this area for decades, and he provides an overview of the basic concepts as well as some insights he’s gained over his extended research. LaGratta describes the work she did with the Center for Court Innovation in pilot projects and training programs.
  • We also have nine audio podcasts put together by Justine Greve, who used to be a member of my staff at the Kansas Court of Appeals. The first three podcasts are excerpts from the American Judges Association video interviews. She organizes what the various speakers had to say by topic area. The first one suggests ways judges can improve their communication from the bench; another talks about using procedural-fairness principles in rating and training judges; a third explains how procedural fairness functions as the central measure for judging whether an authority is legitimate. For the other six podcasts, Greve interviewed authors of recent articles of interest in the area. These podcasts will provide a great introduction to their research. If you want more, a link to the publication is also included.

For those who would like a more organized introduction, I’d mention two possibilities:

  • The National Center for State Courts Institute for Court Management has an online course, Procedural Fairness for Judicial Officers and Court Personnel. It’s free; you can register online and move through the course on your own.
  • Emily LaGratta, now a consultant with her own website, offers a reasonably priced “teeny course” that can help a court team work through procedural-fairness issues over a four-week period as a group. Sometimes there’s grant funding available to underwrite all or part of the cost. She also keeps a good list of recent publications. It includes links to things like court signage, model court websites, and practical tips for courts.

I began my work in this area during my 27 years as a Kansas trial and appellate judge. I’m now a law professor at the University of Missouri–Kansas City School of Law, and procedural justice remains one of my focus areas. Feel free to contact me (sleben@umkc.edu) with thoughts, questions, or comments.—Steve Leben, Douglas R. Stripp Missouri Distinguished Professor of Law, Univeristy of Missouri–Kansas City School of Law

Posted March 29, 2023 by Steve Leben in Uncategorized

Revitalizing the Procedural Fairness Blog   2 comments

I know of no better evidence-based strategy for improving public perception of courts than focusing on procedural fairness (also called procedural justice). It’s the notion that providing a fair hearing (from the participant’s viewpoint) is critical to participant satisfaction with the courts. And this point has been proven in decades of social-science research.

Through this blog and its related websites, we’ve tried to provide information judges and court administrators could use to improve perceptions of fairness. But this blog has had periods of activity and, more recently, neglect.

Working with the National Center for State Courts, we aim to bring it back to life this year and to provide new entries regularly. An initial blog posting today focuses on resources for the new judge (though more experienced judges may find the same resources of interest). We welcome your thoughts and comments as we move forward.—Steve Leben, Douglas R. Stripp Missouri Distinguished Professor of Law, University of Missouri–Kansas City School of Law

Posted March 29, 2023 by Steve Leben in Uncategorized

A Training Opportunity if You Move Quickly!   Leave a comment

Deadline: March 10, 2021

Emily LaGratta has partnered with the National Center for State Courts to offer two free training opportunities to court professionals and court teams for April 2021. These are trainings you can do on your own time, without travel or interrupting your court’s schedule. The only trick is that the deadline to apply for the chance to do these is Wednesday, March 10, 2021.

There are two ways to participate. In each, participants commit to engage with the project for a few minutes a day for four weeks. You’ll get some fresh ideas every day, and you’ll have the chance to try them out in your own courts and dockets.

Here are the options:

OPTION 1: Three courts will be selected to receive complimentary “teeny course” training, which will include daily interactive lessons delivered by email.

OPTION 2: Individuals and court teams are invited to prioritize one bit-sized fairness practice each day for a month. As Emily suggests, “It’s like an exercise challenge to stretch our fairness muscles, bit by bit.”

If you’re interested, go to lagratta.com/fairness-challenge for more information or to sign up. But act quickly: the deadline is Wednesday, March 10.–Steve Leben

Posted March 9, 2021 by Steve Leben in Uncategorized

Plea Bargains – No Back-Room Deals   Leave a comment

Justice Michael Donnelly of the Ohio Supreme Court served for several years as a trial judge in Cleveland. During his time on the trial bench, he implemented a pretty novel practice – he required all plea discussions with the court to be on the record. He recently published an article on this practice, which I commend to your reading.

But let’s think about this for a minute from the procedural fairness perspective. Justice Donnelly says that the genesis behind his practice was that he began to question why all of the backroom discussions between the prosecutor, defense counsel, and the judge were happening.  After all, the two most important people that would be affected by the plea and sentence – the defendant and the victim – were excluded.  But critical discussions were happening behind closed doors as both lawyers tried to size the judge up on sentencing and lobby him on the eventual result.

Justice Donnelly concluded that he needed to shine a spotlight on this practice, and he implemented a rule that all plea discussions with the court had to occur on the record. What was the result (aside, maybe, from some grumbling by attorneys that liked the old way of doing business)? In Justice Donnelly’s view, this clarified the plea and sentencing process by making sure everyone was on the same page and forcing the parties to be upfront about their positions.  It helped bring sentencing considerations out into the open prior to the plea, and gave the defendant a first-hand perspective on the judge’s reactions (rather than a filtered one from his lawyer).

I’m not aware of too many trial judges who have implemented Justice Donnelly’s practice, but would love to hear of your experiences if you have (or even if you’ve considered it). To me, forcing discussions with the court about plea and sentencing into the open helps ensure that the defendant (and victim) is better informed and better appreciates the consequences of the plea. It’s also probably easier for the defendant to follow than the somewhat mechanized plea colloquies that occur in courts across the country on a daily basis. As a bonus, this also cuts down on the potential for reversible error! — Pierre Bergeron

Posted July 9, 2020 by judgebergeron in Uncategorized

Procedural Fairness as Part of the Healing Process   1 comment

We’ve all been struggling with the events of the past weeks, and certainly the challenges of the global pandemic. Judges are often accustomed to staying in the background on contentious political or societal issues, and for good reason.  But some of our colleagues have started speaking out forcefully about the problems in our justice system and the need for reform.  North Carolina Chief Justice Cheri Beasley released a statement in which she said, “Too many people believe that there are two kinds of justice. . . In our courts, African-Americans are more harshly treated, more severely punished and more likely to be presumed guilty.”  The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts similarly said, in a letter from the court to the judiciary and bar, “we need to reexamine why, too often, our criminal justice system fails to treat African-Americans the same as white Americans, and recommit ourselves to the systemic changed needed to make equality under the law an enduring reality for all.”

            Those are difficult, painful words to hear.  But as the Massachusetts court acknowledged, reform will be “uncomfortable,” entailing “difficult conversations, challenging introspection, hard decisions.”  We need to open ourselves up to discomfort if we’re ever going to see meaningful change.

            The more systemic reform alluded to above is well beyond the scope of this blog post, but I do want to just focus for a moment on the role that procedural fairness can play here.  Procedural fairness, at its core, seeks to ensure not only a level playing field between the parties, but also to educate the participants about how they will be treated and the checks in place to maintain even-handedness.  Much of the work that the AJA has done in this area has provided concrete examples on how trial and appellate court can internalize these practices every day.

            As we confront what might be described as a crisis of confidence in our broader system of justice, one thing that we, as judges, can do immediately is place a renewed emphasis on procedural fairness. Go dust off that benchcard, re-read it, and reflect on the ways that you can implement that in your courtrooms. But, more importantly, start a dialog about it – share it with your colleagues, discuss best practices, and help keep procedural fairness top of mind for your fellow judges.  Equally important, take some time out of your day to remind lawyers and litigants about the procedural fairness steps being followed in your courtroom. We might tend to take such things for granted, but I would submit that there’s never been a better time to verbalize these points.

            Procedural fairness, of course, will not solve everything that people are struggling with right now, but it’s a start and a step in the right direction. And it’s something that you can do right now, without waiting for committees or reports from task forces. So take a moment today to reflect on the importance of procedural fairness, and make a renewed commitment to yourself to focus upon it. — Pierre Bergeron

Posted June 5, 2020 by judgebergeron in Uncategorized

COVID-19 and Procedural Fairness   Leave a comment

            If you’re reading this, that means you’ve taken a few minutes away from the non-stop coverage of COVID-19 to ponder procedural fairness. Admittedly, there is not much connection between the two, but I do want to suggest one and offer a challenge to my fellow judges (along with echoing Judge Leben’s comments from last month).

            First, from everything that I’ve seen, courts across the country have done an admirable job balancing the need to remain open for critical dispute resolution with a mindfulness of the exigencies of this public health crisis.  Yes, that means some disputes might get pushed to the backburner in the name of public safety.  But the doors of our courthouses remain open, and judges and court staff are rolling up their sleeves to keep operations running as best as possible under the circumstances.

            When we consider the procedural fairness overlay, it is worth thinking about how many people who utilize our judicial system have been impacted by this crisis—lost jobs or layoffs, lost transportation, a lack of childcare, and even direct illness in their families (or with their lawyers).  This situation cries out for flexibility, accommodation, and understanding of these challenges.  To that end, some courts (including the Ohio Supreme Court) have issued blanket tolling orders to ensure that litigants do not have to comply with certain deadlines in the midst of this crisis. Of course, courts need to do as much as they can to spread the word about their continuity of operations to litigants (and jurors) so that they know what to expect (and, for instance, not to come to court when it’s not necessary).  Transparency is always a bedrock for procedural fairness, but this is a slightly different type of transparency, and it is more critical than ever.

            Once we reach the other side of this crisis, courts need to be thoughtful in handling individual situations because many of the effects will be lingering with us for some time.  Some, of course, will be hit worse than others.  The message that we want to send, from a procedural fairness standpoint, is that we remain here to resolve your disputes, and we will work with you to ensure that your case gets decided on the merits as efficiently as possible (while avoiding needless technicalities or red tape).

            The challenge I’d like to offer is that we judges need to think critically about all of the experimentation that your courts and others are conducting right now. This situation affords us a chance to step back and say, “How can we improve the daily administration of justice?”  Some of our experiments will work well, and others not so much.  But we’ll have data borne of experience that we can return to and use as a basis for evaluating the potential for positive change.  One example in the headlines recently is bail reform, with many courts declining to set bail for certain non-violent offenders.  After the dust settles on this crisis, we need to go back and assess whether those efforts worked from the standpoints of the administration of justice and public safety.  If they did, it may be time to reevaluate some historic practices.

            I want to personally thank all of the judges and court staff who have sacrificed so much during the initial stages of this crisis to keep our judiciary running.  Your selflessness, dedication, and creativity are a testament to the best of public service. –Pierre Bergeron


Posted April 9, 2020 by judgebergeron in Uncategorized

Procedural Justice During a Pandemic   9 comments

Wow. It seems that the world has changed around us in a heartbeat. The changes are disruptive and unsettling. And that’s true for just about everybody—inside and outside the courthouse.

As judges and others connected to the justice system work through this, we are making orders and changes to how we handle cases that will have profound effects on people. The stakes are high, and the amount of time we can spend on individual cases will usually be—understandably at this moment—quite limited. Even so, we need to keep procedural-justice principles in mind; they represent the public’s expectations of us.

One of the core principles is that we need to be transparent and explain our decisions. Even in making orders on our own motion that change hearing dates and keep some orders in effect pending a postponed hearing, we can explain why we’re doing that. Some may respond that it’s obvious why we’re doing these things. But it may not be completely clear to all who are affected. We can at least provide some explanation for the decisions made, including the key considerations we took into account.

For example, in civil-protection-order cases, we may well be leaving a temporary ex parte order of protection in place for an extended period. Perhaps the order was unfair from the outset, having been based on a one-sided understanding of the situation. Even if the order is fair, the party on the receiving end—who has not yet been heard—may perceive its fairness differently. And now we’re leaving it in place without hearing from that party. We should at least provide an explanation of why we did that. And if possible, we should also provide some mechanism for written motions for relief in truly unjust circumstances. Doing that would meet two of the key procedural-justice principles—both providing an explanation and some forum in which we will listen to other viewpoints.

Another important principle of procedural justice is showing respect for those who are coming through or working in our court system. Let’s keep that one in mind too; there are creative ways to show respect for others. One is by recognizing that the demands on all of us may be quite different for a while. Many will be faced with the need to take care of children or other family members while still interacting with the courts. Texas trial judge Emily Miskel (@emilymiskel on Twitter) came up with a creative but respectful solution: an order suspending the normal business dress code for both in-person and remote appearances.

For practical and comprehensive information about handling court cases during this pandemic, check out the National Center for State Courts website, http://www.ncsc.org.

One more thing: take care of yourself. You can’t do a good job making decisions for others unless you take care of yourself.

There’s a book I reviewed a few years ago by law professors Nancy Levit and Doug Linder called The Happy Lawyer: Making a Good Life in the Law. My review focused on how judges could use the research found there to be better judges. Levit and Linder reported that the two biggest factors in improving happiness were control and social connections. Judges usually have control of lots of the things we do, and trial judges often have ample opportunity for social interactions. This pandemic is quickly turning all of that on its head. We seem to lose control hour by hour, day by day, of more and more of what’s going on in our daily activities. And we also are losing our social connections.

Yet as judges, we still must make decisions that will have significant effects on other people’s lives. We need to be sure we remain in the mental and emotional shape to do that well.

Social psychologist Pam Casey, Kevin Burke, and I put together an article about how judges generally can be at the top of their mental game. Give some consideration to what you may need to do right now to keep yourself in the right mental frame to be your best as a judge.

I only realized this morning that part of what was both distracting and annoying me was the loss of control. I realized that when I found myself ironing the no-iron shirts that come out of the dryer in almost-good-enough shape. Some of them could use just a touch of the iron, but usually I don’t go there. Today I did—with starch. I realized that this was just something I could control. It was a little thing, but I needed it today. And I’m grateful that the experience helped me to step back and think more about what’s going on and how I can best deal with it.

With a quick check back at what Levit and Linder had taught me, I saw how this fit into a bigger picture. I’ll think more now about how to keep a sense of control and some social connections as I work through the next weeks or months. I hope you will think about what you need to do for you too; we need our judges at the best they can be right now.

These are some of my thoughts. I, like you, have little training for a moment like this. I welcome your thoughts and suggestions in the comments.

Good luck to all of us as we work through these times, day by day, courthouse by courthouse.—Steve Leben

Posted March 16, 2020 by Steve Leben in Uncategorized

Pro Se Appellate Arguments – “Thank you for listening to me.”   Leave a comment

The article that Judge Leben referenced in his recent post both underscores the points I made in my post from last month (about the need for courts to show their work to promote procedural fairness) and sets this post up nicely. The vanishing oral argument phenomenon at our appellate courts means that few pro se litigants probably have the occasion to present oral argument anymore, but I’d like to challenge that notion.

When I clerked on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit twenty years ago, the practice was (and I believe remains) not to permit pro se litigants the opportunity to participate in oral argument. I thought that practice made sense—after all, it’s unreasonable to expect non-lawyers to effectively answer challenging legal questions at argument.  But after I became a state appellate judge, I discovered that my court routinely permits pro se arguments. After sitting through several such arguments, I’ve changed my views.  Let me offer two examples that help explain why.

In one case, the criminal defendant had served his time for a misdemeanor conviction and sought to challenge his sentence after the fact.  That raises mootness concerns, but the young man came to court and freely acknowledged that a successful ruling wouldn’t help him but he hoped that it might help others. He was articulate, poised, and thoughtful (and probably better than some lawyers I’ve seen!), and I was genuinely impressed by him. After the argument ended, I said “Mr. Jones, thank you for your arguments. You did a really nice job today.” The young man was grinning from ear-to-ear as he walked out of the courtroom.

In the second, a “sovereign citizen” came before us in an ill-fated quest to declare all property taxes unconstitutional.  However, all members of the panel actively listened to him and allowed him to make his argument.  He seemed somewhat amazed by this, and at the end said, “Thank you for listening to me. No court has let me talk before.”  Think about that for a minute – some people just need to feel like they’ve been heard.  And when no one gives them the time of day, that can reflect poorly on the judiciary.

As these two examples probably indicate, the reason I’ve modified my view on pro se oral arguments is a recognition that it’s not always for the court’s benefit – sometimes it’s more for the litigants’ benefit.  They want the opportunity to come in and feel like they’ve been heard and treated seriously. Sometimes, the press of an appellate court’s docket may not allow for all pro se arguments, but my (now) view is that we should give them that opportunity whenever we reasonably can. And this certainly dovetails with the points made in Professor McAlister’s excellent article.

I think these examples carry some lessons for the trial courts as well.  Have trial judges had their share of difficult or uncooperative pro se litigants? I don’t doubt it.  But maybe consider approaching the next case with a pro se litigant from the vantage point of understanding that this person really wants to be heard and probably is overwhelmed by the judicial process. What can we do—as either a trial or appellate judge—to make the often challenging experience of coming to court and representing yourself a little easier on the pro se litigant (obviously without disadvantaging the other side)? Something as minimal as active listening and showing the party that you understand their position might go a long ways to ensuring that they walk away from this experience with a more positive view of the judiciary. – Pierre Bergeron

Posted March 3, 2020 by judgebergeron in Uncategorized